CHAPTER FIVE

Marianne Confesses

After Lionel died in 1945, Marianne married an American G.I. and headed for the United States. It was her intention to leave Borley and her previous life behind. In the cold winter days of February 1958, a private detective found Marianne in Jamestown, North Dakota. She was reluctant to speak, but once the detective assured her the interview would not be published until after her death, she relented.

Swanson was hired by Eileen Garrett, famous psychic and founder of the Parapsychology Foundation in New York. She had been drawn into the hunt by Trevor Hall, who was determined to debunk Marianne and Borley.

The Swanson interview took place over a two day period. When the Jamestown interview was done, Hall and Garrett compared notes and decided they needed more. Marianne was invited to New York, where a second round of interviews was held

The personal aspects of Marianne's story are related in The Most Haunted Woman in England. What follows are the portions of the Swanson/Garrett interviews relating to Borley.

Robert Swanson Interview

Gladstone Hotel - February, 1958

S[wanson]. Marianne, [Henry] Fisher stated that when he was at Borley Rectory in 1935, there was some stone throwing. Have you any idea who might have done this?

M[arianne]. I don't recall the incident at all. I didn't do it.

S. Do you think that Lionel could have possibly been responsible for doing this?

M. Well, he could have.

S. At this time, Lionel could still get around?

M. Oh yes! At that time he could not walk in the morning but towards - at one time he would be able to walk.

S. The stone throwing stopped when he got sick to the point where he couldn't walk, is this correct?

M. As far as I recall.

S. This [next question] is in connection of Mrs. Wildgoose's employment at the Rectory.

M. Well, I don't know whether her name is Wildgoose or not. I know her as Mary Dytor. I hadn't been too well at this time and it was a very large house, so I had to have some help. At that period, Lionel suggested that we have a lady helper. In those days, it was common for a girl to go to the Rectory for pocket money and sometimes nothing at all. I did not correspond with her at all. She was a blond and very beautiful. She had blue eyes and a very clear complexion; a lovely girl. She said that she was engaged to a clergyman, but couldn't marry him because he had to put two boys through school. She was very unhappy. Now what do you want me to say?

S. The household in 1932 consisted of four adults, including Mrs. Dytor, the fourth person being Francois d'Arles. D'Arles actually lived at the Rectory cottage but spent most of his time in the Rectory where he took his meals. Mrs. Dytor stated that he had answered an advertisement by you in 1931, for a companion for your adopted daughter Astrid. What have you to say in regards to this?

M. In the first place, he didn't take all of his meals in the Rectory. If I'm not mistaken, he had a mid-day meal in the Rectory. Francois certainly did live with us, but that was not how he - As I recall, he answered Lionel's advertisement which stated that he needed help at the rectory. He was a very competent floral worker.

S. While you were at the flower shop with d'Arles, you were known as Mrs. Foyster.

M. Yes.

S. Lionel Foyster visited Mrs. Fenton [at the shop next door] and gave her the impression that he was your father, is that correct?

M. Yes, that's correct.

S. What were the relations of d'Arles to you at this time?

M. It was a very stormy relationship. He was a very dictatorial man. Every time I spoke to Mrs. Fenton or conversed with her by telephone, he'd start an argument. It became so terribly unbearable that I went to Lionel's cousin, Bernard Foyster who was an attorney and told him whereby he and his clerk came and got rid of d'Arles.

S. You told me before that you were being blackmailed. What about this?

M. D'Arles said that he would tell the Bishop about me permitting d'Arles to live with me.

S. Did you say that he would also tell the Bishop about Lionel and the ghost in Borley?

M. That was part of it too.

S. That Lionel was responsible for the ghost?

M. He said he was.

S. Concerning the phenomena at Borley, Ian found a string which he pulled and the bell started ringing. He rushed to tell you about it and you said, "Oh, shut up," indicating not to say anything about it. How do you explain this?

M. I can't explain it except that Ian did find a string but so did I and many other people. The wires were bent and pulled down. There was a loose wire in the ceiling that caused Price to accuse Adelaide as being the responsible person for the ringing of the bell. As far as Ian stating that I instructed him not to say anything about it - I just said, "Oh, shut up," because - well, I didn't mean anything by it.

S. The so called phenomena that happened at Borley Rectory was made up by you and Ian and two others in an effort to scare the wits out of d'Arles while he was out of town? You got a cardboard and made the form of a torso, draping a sheet around it with luminous paint, hanging this on a clothes line between two pulleys. When d'Arles returned that evening, you started to move the pulleys.

M. Well, d'Arles always had so much to say; so we had been talking idly and decided to fix up this contraption to scare d'Arles. I always thought that d'Arles did things because it seems that things always happened when he was around. I wondered if we "ghosted the ghost" what he would do. We made up a very crude figure and put this sheet around it. We happened to have some luminous paint at the time that we had bought to outline the keyhole, however, we never did get around to it - this did scare d'Arles and he never did play any more of his tricks again. In fact, he wasn't too happy about Borley after that.

S. You also stated that when Gerald Bull was in the Rectory one day some stones began to tumble down the stairs and when you looked up you saw Miss Dytor hi-tailing it away from the scene, is that correct?

M. I thought that she was just having fun because I knew that the village kids used to throw rocks, and got a great kick out of haunting, so it kind of amused me.

S. You told me this afternoon that d'Arles and Edwin Whitehouse burned some incense with a tar smelling substance on the end of a shovel as they passed through the house to chase the ghost away, is that correct?

M. That is correct.

S. This afternoon, you told me that you saw Lionel take a fireplace shovel and get some ashes out of the fireplace and spread them around the house.

M. No, it was the hall. There was what we would call in America, a pot-belly stove, which was standing in the hall. On this occasion, I heard him cleaning it out as he usually did - as a matter of fact I was upstairs, but I saw him. When I came downstairs the ashes were spread all over the hall. I asked him how this happened and he said: "Oh, the 'things' must have spread them."

S. This afternoon, you related the fact that Lionel was a mental case prior to the time he began writing his manuscript and one of the reasons that can be attributed to the so called missing and finding of articles in particular was because of this illness?

M. Yes. By mental, I don't mean that he was a lunatic. He was suffering from a form of heart trouble that deprived the brain of the - well whatever it is that causes it. He was very, very forgetful all his life, but more so towards the later years of his life. He would place things down and wouldn't be able to find them, then when he found them again, he would say the "things" had carried it around.

S. Would you give us all the information you can about Edwin Whitehouse, and why you have reason to believe that he contributed to the ghost stories at Borley?

M. I first met him at the home of his aunt, Lady Whitehouse. She was the wife of Sir George Whitehouse, who was the churchwarden at Borley church. Edwin wasn't very well and was staying with his aunt. Edwin became a Catholic priest - a violent one. Even the parish priest would get annoyed at him. He always wanted to talk religion. He finally became a Benedictine Monk. He also told me that he had two break-downs. I am not a witness to this, however, he wrote me about it.

S. Price walked out of the Rectory around the 13th or 14th of October, 1931 on bad terms with you and Lionel and accused you of being responsible for the phenomena, what do you have to say about that?

M. I would say that isn't so. He walked out because I invited him to go and told him never to come back. He said that since I was in the room when the bell rang, which was quite true - we were in the kitchen when the bell rang; then it obviously wasn't me and since it rang from the room in which Adelaide was sleeping, she was a suspect. I became very angry and told him that he should go and never come back. I told him that it wasn't with my good will that they were in there. I used to get very ill when they talked about that, and I still do.

S. You said the rats or bats could have started the bells to ringing?

M. Yes, because the wires were laid in the attic on the floor and when Ian was there, we went up there and tested this. We found out that the bells could be made to ring by tampering with them.

S. According to Mrs. Wildgoose, she had admitted Price to the Rectory while she was there sometime during April - November 1932. This certainly does not coincide with the statement that you had turned him away form the Rectory in October 1931, readmitting him in 1932. It is possible.

M. As I said, all things are possible but I doubt it, because to the best of my knowledge and belief, he was not in the rectory while Mary Dytor was there. As far as I know there could have been some people form Marks Tey. I only knew one by name - Frost.

S. Since you have given the information that you don't believe that you have seen Price since October, 1931, can you give us an explanation that in about 1938 Edwin Whitehouse asked Price for your address, which he gave him as 102 Woodbridge Road East, Ipswich, and later Dr. Davies asked Price for your address, which was at Dairy Cottage in Rendlesham, Suffolk. How did Price know your address?

M. Well, I don't know how he could, because he certainly didn't get it from me. He may have gotten it from Lionel, as I know that Lionel had some communications with him since Price asked to read his manuscript. I was very much against Lionel sending it to him. Price had said that he just wanted to read the manuscript for academic reasons and on no account would it be made public, but I can't say how he got the address, certainly not from me.

S. This afternoon, you were telling me that Lionel was preparing a manuscript concerning the haunting of Borley Rectory, which was strictly to be a mystery story - a fictional story and not a true story. Is that correct?

M. Yes, when he first became ill and in order to amuse himself, he made up mystery stories. Afterwards he decide to writ one about Borley. He outlined the characters, but I never read the manuscript. I don't know anything about it, but I do know it was supposed to be a fictional story.

S. According to your conversations with Lionel concerning the manuscript and your daily living with him, would you say that he would have to make up certain stories in order for the book to be attractive to the reading public?

M. Very definitely, because the happenings at Borley were Halloweenish and silly and there would be nothing attractive to the reading public. People just wouldn't buy it. But I never knew what was really in it. Lionel was getting more and more ill, after which he became a very sick man.

S. You told me that d'Arles was in cahoots with Price in making up those ghost apparitions, is that correct?

M. During the time that Reverend Smith was at the rectory, Price ran a lot of stories about haunting; such as things flying through the air. Price told Smith that he believed these things, then later when talking with us, he would say that he didn't believe things, that it was the maid who was responsible. Buses were run from Sudbury out to the Rectory, and Mr. Price including a number of people held seances there at this particular time.

S. Do you think it was possible for Price to have d'Arles perform some of the apparitions in order to impress Lionel that the place was really haunted, so Lionel could write his manuscript which ultimately would get into the hands of Price?

M. Well, Mr. Price was a Magician and a member of the Magician's Society. At one time he conducted an experiment on a black mountain, turning a goat into a man. He indulged in those kinds of publicity stunts. I would say that he was capable of doing almost anything. He blew hot and blew cold and say that he did not believe it one minute and then next breath, he didn't. Anyway, he thought that he was going to make a lot of money, however, he did make quite a large sum of money on all his books.

S. How did Price get the manuscript?

M. I think he got it from Lionel, but I am not sure, because Lionel had promised me that he wouldn't give it to him. Later, Price wrote that he wanted to read it.

S. He wrote to whom?

M. To Lionel, and I told Lionel that he shouldn't have anything to do with that man. He replied that he had promised and Price did want to see it. At times Lionel could be very stubborn and on this occasion, he was, so he let Price have it. Price promised that he only wanted to read it. Some time later, I wrote or telephoned him to send it back and he replied that he had lost it. I was averse to any commerce at all with Price. Anytime Lionel had any letters or commerce with him, there was sure to be trouble of some kind.

S. You had a conversation with Lionel about the manuscript. What did he say to you?

M. He said that Mr. Price wanted to read it for academic purposes only and that Price had told him that if it was good, he might be able to help him get it published. I understand that soon after that, Price died.

S. There suppose to have appeared certain writings on the Rectory walls, pertaining to Marianne, what do you have to say about that?

M. The first writing that appeared was like m's and u's, loops and letters. It could have been Marianne, but I thought that it might have been some little girl that had used our bathroom facilities. Edwin said that it was a spirit, trying to get in touch with me. He wrote "What do you want?" I washed it from the wall and was very annoyed at Edwin, because I had to wash the walls and I didn't like it at all. There were two others times that it appeared. Edwin said that he saw it written on the wall, without a hand as he was passing. He told everybody this; I discounted it.

S. The story concerning the writings at Borley indicated that some of the writings were in the Roman Catholic vein. Can you say anything about these, Marianne?

M. Some of the writings on the wall mentioned Mass and Prayers. I did not write them nor did I see them written on the wall, but Edwin Whitehouse said, to the best of my ability to remember, that as he was going up the stairs, suddenly these writings appeared on the wall. He said that a prayer should be offered to ward of the happenings, so he asked Father Moran to say a Mass in the house, but Father Moran had too much sense for this kind of foolishness and ignored it in a diplomatic way, probably realizing that Edwin was not exactly himself.

S. What do you mean by this?

M. Well, he was squiffy. He talked religion constantly, not as a private affair, but just to discuss the "isms" of it. He seemed to believe - oh I don't know what he believed, but he was different from what the average person would be.

S. Edwin Whitehouse stated that one evening while at Borley you were going up the stairs at the rectory to your room, whereby you suddenly became ill and he grabbed you and while going upstairs to place you in your room, the lamp that he was carrying went out. What would you attribute this strange occurrence to?

M. I deny the fact that Edwin ever carried me upstairs, as this would not have been physically possible. But as to the lamp; that was a regular occurrence, because of the upcoming draught and for one to walk swiftly makes this more so. I would like to explain that there was a garden door, butler's pantry door, a great window on the stair and a drawing room door, dining room door, study door, front door and a door that led to another wing of the house. All of these factors contributed to making the house very drafty.

S. In Price's book on Borley Rectory, rings used to appear and disappear - what do you have to say to that?

M. My wedding ring, which Lionel gave me in Canada was at least 3-4 sizes too big. I could wear it easily on my middle finger. I would take it off, placing it somewhere around the house and it would always get lost. It was quite a joke.

S. Do you attribute this to your carelessness?

M. Yes, I do. I was afraid to keep it on while I washed my hands and I was always saying, "Oh dear, where is my ring?" There was a large - what we call in England, stone slop - which was used for pouring down water. One day I lost my ring and it was found in this slop stone. Apparently, I poured it out along with some water and that certainly was my carelessness.

Thus ended the interview between Swanson and Marianne in North Dakota.

In a letter to Trevor Hall on March 25, 1958, Eileen Garrett discussed the Swanson interview. In part she wrote, "Marianne expressed the belief that everything connected with Borley during her husband's presence there was a fake. Her description of her husband is that he, 'was always off his rocker.' Mention of Price's name is too much for her. She regards him as a faker, a magician, and one who might readily have produced the effects for his own purpose."

None of the researchers was satisfied with the results of the first Swanson interview.

Trevor Hall was not satisfied and came up with over two dozen lengthy questions he was very anxious to have clarified.

Eileen Garrett was not satisfied and told Hall in an April 16 letter, "She is not an easy girl to deal with." Garrett went on to say, "My interest would be to get her to tell all, and then help her find a decent position where she could live out a more healthy and disciplined life."

Swanson was not satisfied and became "so intrigued with this case that it now consumes him with the need to push it to the end," according to Garrett's letter.

Foundation secretary Martin Ebon told Hall, "It is felt that if Marianne was interviewed in New York City, much can be accomplished. She would be at the disposal of interviewers for hours at a time, which was impossible in Jamestown as she always had to rush home."

Swanson and Garrett called Hall and invited him to travel to America so he could interview Marianne in New York. Hall quickly realized that his presence "might well be an inhibiting factor in any further confession which Marianne might make," and declined the offer. He would remain in the background.

Swanson corresponded with Marianne and talked with her on the phone. He extended the invitation to come to New York. He didn't tell her about the many pages of letters that had been written between the researchers about this second interview. The plan was to get very specific and not spare any feelings.

Swanson then sent her money for a plane ticket and expenses. Marianne arrived in New York and met with Garrett and Swanson May 9, 1958. In preliminary talks at the Parapsychology Foundation, Ebon noted in a memorandum:

1. Mrs. O'Neil stated that the impression that Harry Price asked her to become active as a medium, or that she had mediumistic abilities may have been due to the fact that Price did indeed tell her that she might have powers of such a nature as to attract or project 'Poltergeist' phenomena. She specifically denied giving a 'seance' to Mr. Price.

2. Mrs. O'Neil, throughout the conversation, expressed herself in terms of extreme skepticism toward the Borley phenomena. She went on record asserting that the Borley phenomena were due to fraud, perpetuated either by mischievous neighborhood children or created or imagined by Edwin Whitehouse or Lionel Foyster.

3. Mrs. O'Neil was ready to grant that the origin of the Borley 'legend' might easily be traced to the natural fears of Mrs. Smith who inhabited the Rectory after she and her husband returned from a country where they had served as missionaries with many servants. At Borley, they were in a big house with eight entrances inhabited by rats and starlings, causing many weird noises that might be misinterpreted by a fearful person.

4. Mrs. O'Neil mentioned that Mr. Price had brought many people to Borley including Mr. W.H. Salter who had become so excited over Price's allegations that two carved figures over a mantlepiece were due to origins in a monastery, thus indicating a monastery tradition and psychic links with such apparitions as the reported one of a headless nun. Mr. Salter disagreed saying that these carvings might have been bought at such an everyday locale as the Earl's Court shops.

5. Mrs. O'Neil did not commit herself specifically to Mrs. Garrett's suggestion that she make a 'clean breast' of the Borley affair; however, she seemed to imply tacitly that she was willing to cooperate in clarifying the record sufficiently to clear up misunderstandings, misapprehensions, and contradictions.

Garrett wrote to Trevor Hall May 10 to keep him posted of her progress:

After our conversation with Marianne and Robert Swanson. . . I picked up the trail again and took the lady to my favorite restaurant. . .After a few drinks we began to get truly acquainted, and I think I know by now what makes Marianne behave as she does.

She is extremely Irish, born in Antrim, and filled with all the imagination, superstition, legends and what have you of my race [Irish]. She probably did not have the disciplined upbringing which happened in my own life, and many times as I listened to her I thanked heaven for the rigidity of my very orthodox aunt. . .

Marianne laughs easily and has a quite beguiling personality once she is off her guard, and quite unblushingly told Mr. Swanson that she had every intention of lying to him, and I fear she will do it again since her lying is a game. She remained adamant in her alleged dislike of Price, but she had enough to say about Mrs. Goldney and her affairs with Price some of which took place in the oddest places in Borley that I really wish you could have been present to hear! She denied emphatically any relationship with Whitehouse but rather intimated that the latter and Foyster were exceedingly intimate which suggested a spot of homosexuality in the relationship although she did not say so outright. She emphasized that Whitehouse was always ill, imaginative, and a liar, and again and again stated that she knew nothing about the stiletto. If these things happened at all, I honestly think that so much more has happened to her that she forgets, funnily or seriously. She lives in a perpetual temperature of romance. I cannot help seriously wondering how much Mr. Swanson is going to get when he begins his very realistic approach on Monday next.

She was amusing, gay all through the dinner. I pressed the bottle close to her, she drank like a lady and showed no outside or visible signs of being affected by it. She talked intelligently about a book that she is writing and we suggested to her that she should write a book about the whole Borley experience. It might be a therapeutic thing for her to do.

Apart from the seriousness of the subject I was frankly amused with her, and I can readily see that she is wiling to enter into any other form of mischief. I asked her point blank if she had killed Foyster. She answered equally candidly that it had often been in her mind, but that he was too cunning for anything like that to happen to him. Again and again she remarked that he laid in bed and wrote all kinds of imaginative stories which were to be presented about Borley, hauntings, ghosts, etc., but she never felt that they were to be taken seriously, nor did she take them seriously herself, or so she says. I am perfectly willing to believe, however, that if Price wanted some phenomena, and Mrs. Goldney obviously did, she would have no hesitation in producing it. She will not admit to having any psychic power and vehemently puts it all away from her. Nevertheless, the type of mischievous make-up which she possess might well lend itself to a form of poltergeist phenomena.

I felt sorry for her in spite of her willfulness and mischievousness. She is evidently very fond of the little boy and I have told her that if she comes clean with Swanson and tells as much of the truth as she can remember, I would help her later on to get a scholarship for the child. She seemed to take great pleasure in this.

Garrett was keeping Hall appraised of every minute detail, and concluded her May 10 letter to him with this postscript:

P.S. I talked with Marianne this morning. She was very upset by Swanson who must have given her a rough time yesterday. . .

This morning she denies that she was born in Ireland, but was born in England - she admits that her family are Irish!!

The second set of interviews between Marianne and Swanson was held May 11-12, 1958 at the Governor Clinton Hotel in New York.

S[wanson]. Now, Marianne, I'm referring again to the book The Haunting of Borley Rectory on page 89. In the second paragraph I read as follows:

Lady Whitehouse told us that she thought Mrs. Foyster's fainting spells might be trances, but this suggestion is not borne out by testimony. It is true that in Mr. Foyster's letter to Mr. S.H. Glanville of September 2, 1937, he said, "my wife is very psychic" and Price tells us that Mrs. Foyster is said to come from a psychic family, but Mr. Foyster refers to his wife's illness in simple physical terms, such as: "feeling absolutely rotten, somewhat collapsed for a time," "had a very bad turn," and describes how during a party of spiritualists in 1932, Marianne came into the room, immediately saw the ghost of Harry Bull and went into a trance herself.

What have you to say about this statement?

M[arianne]. Let me read it first. Where is it now? "Lady Whitehouse told -" (reads statement). By psychic, I don't - it depends on what you mean. I think if you mean intuitive, then yes, and I didn't feel well many times, and I don't know where all that comes in from yes, this is in the manuscript. Yes, I did nave a period of about a year before that - well, I was never really well, as I've explained that before, and as to the party of spiritualists in January 1932, I think - I can't remember which group that he is referring because, excuse me if I'm confused, but there were a great number of people that came there, but I don't think it can mean the Marks Tey group.

There were some others that came, but I certainly didn't go into a trance and see Harry Bull.

S. You deny that statement?

M. That isn't true; that isn't true. Did Lionel write this in a letter?

S. According to his manuscript. See here is a footnote, stating "Fifteen Months, page 114."

M. Yes, it's his manuscript.

S. Do you deny anything like that?

M. Well, I deny - I don't deny, on two occasions as I said before, I sat in with the Marks Tey group, but a friend suggested that our spiritualism was extremely wrong and that I would be seeing the Devil stand up beside me and I did recall the Witch of Endor and such and I was rather afraid and I didn't sit in with them any more.

S. Now, on the same page it states, the book states, on the evening of October 14, 1931 there was no evidence of any - I'm consolidating that statement - there was no evidence that any manifestations would occur, and you had flung yourself upon your knees and prayed aloud to St. Anthony for vindication.

M. I think that's one of Mrs. Goldney's day dreams or night dreams or whatever you'd like to call them.

In the first place, St. Anthony is not the patron of vindication, he finds lost things, and I wasn't apt to fling myself on my knees and call St. Anthony, I think that's a little of her romancing.

S. On page 92 of The Haunting of Borley Rectory, there is information Mr. Foyster refers to in his Diary of Occurrences, of the smell of lavender in the house, and the fact that a bag of lavender was on the mantlepiece in your room, and subsequently Mr. Foyster discovered the lavender in this coat pocket in the bedroom. What have you got to say about the smell of lavender at Borley Rectory?

M. Well, there were often various perfumes that often came into the house, but I don't know if that's such a phenomenon. We used to remark on the beautiful perfume that floated through the house and the bag of lavender incident I do remember. It was the small sachet of lavender such as is often made up by country women, just a little sachet, I don't recall where it came from, and I do remember that Lionel found it in his coat pocket, but then it's quite true to say he might have absent-mindedly put it in his pocket, because he was often absent-minded and would slip things into his pocket.

But it wasn't a size enough to perfume the whole house if that's what you're trying to mean. It was just a little sachet.

S. Now, you also mentioned to me previously that perhaps the perfume smell could have come from your garden.

M. Yes, I think a lot of it did. We had night primroses there which were fairly -

S. Fragrant?

M. Fragrant, and in the country there's hay and there's flowering trees and there are all kinds of things, even in winter time. In Europe there are perfumes that are not here in the States at all.

S. Well, you don't attribute the smell of lavender at Borley as something super-natural?

M. I don't know what it was; I never did discover what it was, but it was there and it was very pleasant, and a lot of people beside me had noticed that. But I think that all this taking apart of Lionel's story, because after all he didn't start that until long, long after - it isn't a diary in the first place - is entirely false. He didn't start that until long after we had left Borley - long, long, after we had left Borley, that started. (This is untrue. Price was shown the Diary in October, 1931.)

[This, and other parenthetical remarks, were added to the transcripts by the researchers.]

S. You mean he started writing?

M. Yes.

S. Marianne, on page 92, there's information concerning certain odd smells of cooking odours. Can you elaborate on that point?

M. Well, we used to notice strange odours of cooking and I know that we often have said, "Oh, they're at it again," but you know life wasn't all harmful and ghastly, and beastliness, and Lionel and I had a great deal of fun together over many things, and I can't recall ever having said that I wouldn't go down for a million dollars because lack of courage has never been my failing. I think had there been any occasion on which I had to go, I think, under God, I would do it, face anything if I have to; if I have to; if I have to- I have to, but we did smell strange odours of cooking. After the Mitchells left, we still noticed it but it could have been explained in some way but it was rather fun to imagine goblins having a fry downstairs, and we used to laugh about it and wonder what they were cooking and Lionel would suggest, in the way that people will, oh, having a bit of fun, we weren't being scientific this all sounds so silly years afterwards, Lionel would suggest frog's legs, and grasshoppers, and all kinds of silly things like that.

It all sounds so silly years afterwards, when it's only just fun, innocent fun at the time.

S. Now, Marianne, on page 94 of The Haunting of Borley Rectory, under "Class 1," those incidents alleged to have occurred when Mr. Foyster states or clearly implies that he was out of the rectory, and has cited an instance there that a nice chunk of wood was outside your door. What have you got to say about that incident?

M. Well, let me put it this way. Mr. Foyster was, of course, out a great deal. That isn't quite true because he had, as he said, one day a month in which he went round the parish - you see there were so few houses. There was a few on Borley Green, and another few down a lane, and he could go around them in one day, which he did. He was not away from the house a great deal.

That isn't true. He went over to the church every day of course because he had a service. Sometimes I went with him and sometimes I didn't. Mostly, I did. That was at seven in the morning, but he spent a great deal of time in his study in reading and resting, and the incident of the chunk of wood is quite true. I remember the occasion quite well. I heard this noise and there was the wood, and I said, "Oh, that's very good, now put it on my fire." I thought it was some kid that had done it. Lionel said, "Could it have been the goblins?" I said, "Well, whatever it was, it was a nice chunk of wood, and it's on the fire," and we burned it.

You see, there was so much that could have been tied up with kid's pranks, and I thought that was one of them, and regarding the other junk that was carried there, there was an old fireplace - fire bars for an English fireplace that used to appear; we would take it out and it would be brought in, but I never -

Well now, I'm getting tied up. Where am I?

Well, there were weird noises that were heard in the house, but there again, in most houses if you lie awake at night there are all kinds of happenings.

There were occasions when we frightened each other, if you know what I mean. We talked about things and we would get ourselves nervous and excited, and then even if the house creaked you imagined things were coming.

S. Now Marianne, on page 94 of the book, under "Class 2," those incidents commonplace in themselves, which, according to Mr. Foyster's testimony occurred and which appear to have been capable of an immediate natural explanation but for Mrs. Foyster's denial of them.

As an example, 1. Two days after this, I went up with Adelaide, up to bed one night, and while I was upstairs heard someone (whom, of course, I took for Marianne) walking about the hall. When I came down I found she had not left the room she was sitting in.

2. Lionel Foyster in his Diary states: I generally think it is Marianne and she thinks it is me until we ask each other. That evening we found our bedroom windows, which had been left open, shut the wrong way around. The top where the bottom should be and the bottom where the top should be.

What have you to say concerning this class of incident?

M. Well, in regard to the - that I hadn't left the room. That's probably quite true, but I don't recall the incident at all, wouldn't it be possible that if I moved in the room that it could be heard upstairs. I should have thought that that probably could have been, and if he said, "Were you out running in the hall?" and I said, "No," well, I wasn't.

Regarding the window, that happened on several occasions, but I didn't pay it much mind. It was one of those things that could so easily have been done by someone who had forgotten it, or merely by somebody doing it for (fun). I don't remember. It might have been Adelaide or anyone that had done it because the windows moved easily on the sashes.

I do recall on one occasion that - something that I surely wouldn't have done. I had a large pile of laundry which I had ironed, and if you will recall we had just a stove (the irons had to be heated in the stove) and ironing was really a feat, and I had left it in the hall because I didn't make more trips up the stairs than necessary and I was going to take it up later. That was all strewn about the house and I was very indignant about that. I don't know who did it or what did it but somebody did it and I was very mad about that. I do recall that.

S. Now, Marianne, on page 95 of the book under "Class 3," those incidents supposedly found normal in origin occurring in the presence of Mrs. Foyster when alone, the results of which were afterwards inspected by the rector. Now, I read you that chapter, what have you got to say about that?

M. Well, let me have the book again, you go too fast for poor little me.

One evening in August - I don't recall what month it was in, but I do remember that there was a lot of noise in the study, and Adelaide and I - there was a lot of noise - we ran over to the church where Lionel was, and told him that we'd heard a lot of noise in there, but it was books that had fallen, as far as I remember. I don't - and it wasn't in the hall. As far as I remember, it was in the study, and the books were out of one particular shelf.

S. Well, who do you think knocked those down?

M. Well, I don't know but just recently in my own home, where I live now in -

S. In Jamestown?

M. Jamestown, there was a pile of books fell but I didn't hardly - I thought it was something to do with the book shelf and I think that was right too. It was just - they had fallen and made quite a clatter, but it was just the tilt - the book shelf wasn't exactly plumb.

S. Now, what about the other incidents in that same chapter? About the stones being under your pillow?

M. Under my pillow? That I can't remember anything about. That I can't remember. I don't recall about that.

Yes, that I remember, but surely that isn't supposed to be - [transcript does not say what she was pointing out.]

S. When you point now, you're going on classification No. 4 -

M. It's quite true, but what does that prove? That it never happened? Hasn't that ever happened in any family? I thought it had.

S. Well, what about this point here (indicating)? A hair brush hit you?

M. Hit me?

S. "I was aroused by being hit on the head by my hair brush."

M. I was never hit on the head by a hair brush. (Foyster said he was hit.)

So much of this is new and I don't know.

S. Now, you're reading here:

Marianne was making up the fire, and I was going through the door leading out to the scullery. As I was going through the door, a stone was thrown form the opposite corner of the room, which hit the door just as I went behind it.

Do you remember that incident?

M. Yes, I do. I recall vaguely about the - and I also recall this -

S. I know, answer the first one. Do you recall that, or can you explain some more about it?

M. No, I can't. I remember that it was just at supper time, and I was - we had a stove that you had to fix with fire, and I remember I was doing that, and the - I remember -

S. Was the stone -

M. I didn't see the stone. The stone so far as I remember was outside, or fell outside. I don't know.

S. Have you any idea how the stone -

M. Well, I didn't see it. I didn't see anything at all about it, but I did see this piece of brick fall right on the table, and it fell right down between two glasses.

S. Well, how do you explain that?

M. I don't explain it; I didn't try to explain it. It was uncomfortable, and I asked the Reverend Bassett when he was over there if it was possible for Lionel to be doing these things because at that time I wondered in Lionel was doing it.

S. Well, you hadn't seen Lionel do it?

M. No, I hadn't, but he and I were the only two people in the room with the exception of a small child. So, if it wasn't me, and it consciously wasn't, then I thought it probably was Lionel.

S. Well, from Lionel's behaviour at the rectory and from your observation, do you think that he was doing it?

M. He had opportunity there to do it if he had wanted to.

S. Well, you lived with him. Was he of the mentality to do it? Could you tell by his demeanor, by his activities, by the way he moved around, that he was doing these things?

M. I don't know what you mean by that because I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you mean by that, explain to me what you mean?

S. Now, going back to my question as to whether you could tell from Lionel's demeanor, his activities around the house, his attitude toward these incidents, from your observation of him and everything you know about him, do you think that he did or could have done any of the incidents that may be regarded as super-normal?

M. I think that he had the opportunity, and as he often said, if he hadn't been a clergyman, he would have been an actor and he was very good at getting up plays, and he always said that in the next life he was going to be getting up plays. I think that he would probably have gotten a kick out of certain phenomena, but I know he wasn't responsible for it all because I think a great many people had a hand in it, and I also think that there was something that nobody had a hand in. I think there was something at Borley that wasn't a human being, but I think a lot of the so-called phenomena were helped along by other people.

S. Now, when you say that there was something at Borley - you mean that there were spirits or the place was haunted?

M. I don't like the word, "haunted."

S. Well, would you kindly elaborate on that statement. I don't believe it's quite complete.

M. Haunting -

S. I don't mean a definition of haunting. You made a statement there about there was something at Borley other than human beings. That is what I want elaborated on.

M. Well, for one thing, certain rooms in the house were unhappy rooms, a person couldn't sit in them with any comfort. It wasn't only me, it was all kinds of people. They didn't like certain rooms, and then there were other rooms that were very happy rooms, and there were unexplained drops in temperature. It would become bitterly cold and things like that and oh, I don't know - it's sort of intuition, I don't know how to explain it, but -

S. You had a feeling evidently that everything there was not normal, but still you couldn't put your finger on it, is that it?

M. I didn't, I don't know about normal. It was something that doesn't happen in all homes, all places. But the church too had a different feeling compared to many churches; it was quite a different feeling in Borley Church. Now, for example, in the long Melford Church or - and other people had felt the same about it. It was if there was something, and there was definitely in the church a knowledge of survival, if I may say so.

S. In other words, you mean in the hereafter?

M. Yes, yes, I do.

S. Can you elaborate a little more on that point?

M. No, I don't know how to explain it, but I do know that it was a very convincing feeling, which one got there that there was almost a certainty of the hereafter.

S. Now, Marianne, again I read from The Haunting of Borley Rectory, page 95, under Classification 5: those incidents supposedly paranormal in origin, alleged by Mrs. Foyster to have occurred in the presence of both the rector and his wife, or while they were both in the house together but which were experienced only by Marianne because of her psychic abilities.

Now, for one of the examples it states, "I cannot remember the exact date, but we had not been in the house very long before Marianne began seeing Harry Bull. This, of course, might be imagination, but I mention it as I want to tell everything that we have experienced."

Now, previously in this interview you had told us of an incident where you saw a man going down to see, in the direction where Lionel was standing or sitting, and you described his clothing, and Lionel said, "Well, that's the clothing of Harry Bull." Is that correct?

M. Yes.

S. Now, are there any other incidents that could have contributed to your seeing Harry Bull?

M. I told you I saw the same man go through the church yard, but he didn't have a wraith-like appearance or anything like that. He looked flesh and blood to me, and I didn't speak to the man or have any - I just saw the man.

S. Now, do you think that Lionel was referring to those incidents when he said that you had seen an apparition of Harry Bull?

M. Well, he said - he convinced himself that it was Harry, and we didn't talk about it because we'd had a few words about it. I dislike, I don't like the word "apparition" at all, and we didn't talk very much about it, and I didn't like to - and after all the trouble, well I thought it was best to let sleeping dogs lie, and this after all is, I can't recall. After all, it's a great many years after the happenings, and I can't be expected to remember what happened 30 odd years ago, and, as I said before, when Lionel started to write his book, it was intended for fiction and was written many years after leaving the rectory. (This is untrue as previously stated.) [It would be true if she is referring to Fifteen Months.]

I think that it was most unfair of Harry Price to take it and use it in a scientific volume.

S. You knew about the legend of the nun there - the headless driver of the coach?

M. Yes, I did.

S. But you've never seen anything like that?

M. Oh, no I didn't, no I didn't. When I first went to the rectory and heard the story about Mrs. Smith, Lionel and I said, "Well, we wished the coach would come and carry us to Sudbury." As I said, we had no car nor any other means of transportation, and we thought it was kind of cute to say remarks like that. There was nothing ulterior or bad; we just said it, and also the Bulls themselves had a very old fashioned coach which a very old lady cousin used occasionally to go airing in - Miss "Yellery" - and sometimes we would get very high balled and call it "Napolean's Coach," and sometimes we would call it "The Headless Coach," and the man who drove it was "The Headless Coachman," but that was only - well, the way families talk when they're at home - all kinds of family jokes. But I certainly never saw the Headless Coach. I never heard of anyone who did except the Smiths.

S. Now, again in the same chapter it states, and I read as follows:

Marianne was proceding along the kitchen passage. She had gone almost as far as the kitchen door, when suddenly, looking up, she saw a sort of monstrocity just in front of her. It was shadowy but seemed to her more like a gigantic bat than anything else. It put out a hand and touched her on the shoulder, and the touch was like that of a hand of iron. Then came the shriek.

What do you have to say about that?

M. Well, I don't recall any such incident at all. The only time that I ever recall anything around the house was "Guy Fawkes" night, kids coming round and I know that wouldn't be in the interior passage. I know that some of the kids came round one time and gave me - I startled and squealed becuase I came on these kids on the "Guy Fawkes" night, but I knew immediately that they were jsut children, and I don't know wheteher Lionel dramatized that incident and made it into this or not. I don't know; I don't recall.

S. Now, on page 97 of The Haunting of Borley Rectory, under Classification 7, which reads as follows: Those incidents supposedly paranormal in origin which took place when Mrs. Foyster was not present.

One of these, Mr. Foyster states: "I was just going to my room when I heard a noise somewhere in the house. Knocking at his door - that is d'Arles' door - to see whether it was in his room. I got no answer so I pushed the door open and found something put up against it from inside. When I got itn I saw it was an empty paint pot. D'Arles was alseep but woke up when I came in. He denied putting the paint pot there."

Do you know anything about that incident?

M. No I don't. I don't know anything at all about it, and I think that whoever took Lionel's book for a scientific - I think that it's all so silly and trivial - paint pots.

S. Want to bring a chair up? Now, Marianne, on page 100 of The Haunting of Borley Rectory - it's concerning Edwin Whitehouse and a bottle dropping demonstration in the kitchen of Borely rectory on the night of 13 November, 1931.

Price states in his book, "They all saw another bottle materialize in the air above them. First it was a muchroom shape, then its form changed to that of a bottle. It was in the air for a few seconds and crashed to the floor."

What have you to say of this incident? Did you see it? Or, what is your recollection of it?

M. My recollection - as far as I remember - I heard the crash. I was cooking something. I believe I was frying pancakes - it was somehting that required concentration - and I heard the crash, and I thought it was probably children at first that pushed something, but I saw it was one of the ubiquitous bottles, and the bottle must have - oh, I was about to say exploded - because the glass went all over. We had quite a time sweeping up the glass. It just sort of disintegrated very much in minute particles - went all over. Oh, I should say it was a stone floor in the kitchen, which probably accounted for its disintegration.

S. In Chapter 15 of The Most Haunted House in England, pages 91 and 92, there is information stating as follows, which I read from page 91: "She was lying on her back." This information comes from Edwin Whitehouse.

She was lying on her back; her hands, under the bed clothes were drawn up near her neck. Her voice was rather weak and in order to hear her speak, I sat at the end of her bed, on the side nearest the door. Mr. Foyster then asked me if I would mind remaining with her for a short time while he slipped across the road to the church. I could see all around the room which had very little furniture, and there were windows at my back and one to my left, all the later a good distance from the bed, which had its back to the door and was only a few feet from it.

I changed over to the opposite end of the bed, keeping my eyes on Mrs. Foyster, who was still lying on her back with her hands well under the bed clothes. We had been talking for perhaps ten minutes when I suddenly saw her start. At the same time, I felt something lanf lightly on my lap, coming apparently from behind me. I took hold of the object. It was a brass stiletto, about 8 or 9 inches in length and weighing I should imagine, less than 8 ounces, not much less than 8 ounces. I was told that it was a paper knife belonging to Mr. Foyster and was always kept in the study.

Mrs. Foyster was still lying in the same position, her hands under the bed clothes. I particularly noticed. I felt certain that by no possible means could she have got the object on to my lap without my detectong it. When I asked her why she started, she said she saw the stiletto rise up from the floor behind me and then do one or two curious convolutions in the air before settling on my lap.

Now, Marianne, what do you have to say about this incident. . .?

M. Just let me read that about the - just a minute -

S. It starts right here. What do you have to comment on the report on page 91?

M. Well, I'd say first of all there was only one window in the room that we habitually used.

S. That's the bedroom?

M. In the bedroom, and there's not two windows and I don't recall Edwin ever being in there and I can't understand why Mr. Foyster would ask him to stay with me, and I certainly don't remember any stiletto incident. I would like to say that I have never, to the best of my beliefs, even seen a stiletto.

S. Have you seen paper openers that mioght resemble a stiletto, roughly?

M. Well, we had a flat ivory paper knife, I recall, but I don't remember any brass stiletto that weighed about 8 ounces.

S. Well, have you seen either the brass stiletto or knife or any other object rise from the floor and make several revolutions and fall into Edwin Whitehouse's lap?

M. No, but when Edwin was there I did see bottles fall, but I don't know where they came from.

S. But on this particular incident, to return to the stiletto, you have never seen anything like that happen?

M. Not to my - I don't remember anything, ever having seen anything happen.

S. An incident of this type you would undoubtedly recall if it did happen?

M. Well, I should think that I would.

S. Marianne, you have just explained to me that the bedroom you usually occupied, according to the floor plan in the book titled The Haunting of Borley Rectory, and the floor plan on page 12, you usually occupied room No. 6, which has one window in it?

M. Yes, that is correct.

S. Now, that room is known now as the Blue Room. Have you ever heard of that expression before?

M. No, I haven't, and it was not - I can't understand why it should be called a Blue Room because the walls were kind of pale gentian-pink.

S. Now, Edwin Whitehouse describes on page 91 that he had windows to the back of him indicating that there was more than one window.

M. Well, it says there's one to the side of him also.

S. And one also to the side. Well, according to the floor plan, he was in error evidently because there's only one window.

M. That is correct. There was only one window.

S. Now, on page 92, Edwin Whitehouse reports that he believed the phenomena might be stopped by saying or reciting the Rosary, and he states that you had no objection to this and joined him in the prayer. What have you to say to this, Marianne.

M. Well, I can't recall the incident. I know that Edwin on many occasions did recite prayers, but the incident of the stiletto, I don't recall at all, and I'm quite sure that I would have had it happened. I do know that Edwin was in a highly emotional state when he came to Borley and he used to turn up at the rectroy very often. Sometimes it was quite inconvenient, and I know that in the book it states that I wanted to get away from the rectory and that its inconvenience and all broke my heart.

Well, that is a falsehood because I had lived in New Brunswick, at Salmonhurst, where every speck of water had to be carried from a pump, pumped in below zero weather, and lugged into the house up steps, through a porch and into the kitchen. So, anyone who could put up with conditions like that could surely put up with a house that had water laid on, and as to not liking it, I did. I made a very beautiful garden there, and I really did like the house.

S. Marianne, getting back to page 92, Whitehouse reports that after you and he had finished your prayers to stop the phenomena, he states that he had hardly finished reciting the prayers when he heard the front door open, and guessing it was Mr. Foyster, he moved out to the landing to greet him. He states he'd only just begun to descend the staircase when he heard a shriek and he rushed to find you lying downward on the floor with the bed clothes and mattress on top of you. He states that the whole thing must have happened in an instant as he is quick on his feet and there was not much distance from the room, when the incident occurred. He looked at the mattress on top of you and after a couple of minutes Mr. Foyster and he laid you back on the bed. You looked very shaken and when able to get your breath said, in reply to his question, that you had felt the bed tilted and yourself pushed out by something which, at the same time, gave you a blow on the body. What have you to say about this statement?

M. Well, there I think Edwin is again in error because the bed that we slept in was a very heavy wooden one, and I don't think that anyone could have tilted it, much less pushed it over, but I think that what Edwin is talking about is another incident that happened.

I'd like to explain that some of the furniture we had in Borley Rectory was good stuff - old - that we had purchased from Mr. Foyster's brother who had got it from the old home in All Saint's Rectory, Hastings, and some new stuff that we bought ourselves, and I think that Edwin is a little bit mixed up in this. One time I had - I was running quite a fever,a nd I think, if I am not incorrect in stating that it was on a Sunday, and Lady Whitehouse, who often came into the house on Sunday and very often invited us down to Arthur Hall for lunch, I think that she insisted that I go to bed, and that I sleep in the spare room, and in the spare room there were two very "jerry" beds - "jerry" wooden beds. They were the light beds - that's this room here -

S. That's room No. 7.

M. Oh, yes, I -

S. Alongside the Blue Room.

M. Yes, we called it the spare room. It had cream walls, and I know on this occasion and on other occasions, the twin beds would collapse, and I recall one Sunday when I wasn't well, I had some trouble at that period -

S. What was that due to?

M. Well, I used to flow for long periods, and it wouldn't cease, and then I - it would end up with a temperature, and I would be quite - well, ill, and on more than one occasion the bed collapsed but that was because they were badly built, and it was just as if somebody - well, you know how it is when a bed goes, it's just as if everything hits you all at once, but I think that's what Edwin is confusing here.

S. You are certain the reason the bed collapsed was because of its -

M. Well, it was its -

S. Weakend structure?

M. I'm not explaining very well but they weren't very expensive beds and they were apt to do that.

S. Well then, on page 94 of The Most Haunted House in England, it states about Edwin Whitehouse, about half way through the prayers a curious thing happened. "The two of us became simultaneously aware of a presence near us (he is referring to you and himself). I am now only stating what both of us felt. If people conclude that this was a purely subjective experience, having no objective reality, I cannot possible contradict them. All I can say is that is what I felt. Mrs. Foyster seemed a bit perturbed so I told her not to worry and continue the Rosary to the end. Neither of us could see nor hear anything although the presence seemed to be behind Mrs. Foyster and near room 7." (Now, that was the room you just described where possibly the bed fell down.) "The Novena over, Mrs. Foyster walked back toward room 7 to investigate and I thought I would look at the walls downstairs. I returned a couple of minutes later and Mrs. Foyster joined me on the landing. We compared notes, but neither of us had anything to report."

M. That is so, that is true.

S. That is true?

M. That is true, yes. (Marianne says later on that she never recited either the Roasry or Novena with Whitehouse.)

S. "Now, happening to turn my eyes toward a bit of wall that jutted out from the landing, a point directly opposite where we had been kneeling, I was surprised to notice a fresh bit of writing on an otherwise clean bit of wall. The message which was cribbled in pencil, but quite legible read as follows: 'Get light Mass and prayers M.' Now, what do you have to say about this, Marianne?

M. Well, I asked Edwin if he had written it because Edwin was in a very high emotional state at that period, and I asked him if he had written it, and he said, "No," but he hinted. I don't recall very much more about it except that I thought that he had.

I don't remember - I think that was a Thursday afternoon becuase I used to bake on Thursdays.

S. Now, if you remember Marianne, this incident happening, it was shortly after the bed collapsed.

M. Oh, it was not, because it wasn't the same day, and I know it wasn't, I know it wasn't, I know it wasn't.

S. It was not the same day?

M. I know it wasn't because I remember so well the incident - I used to bake bread. I can fix the day that I used to bake because the baker used to call three times a week and I got yeast from him. In England you buy your yeats from the baker. I know I was baking and I was kind of wondering how my bread was coming.

S. Well, the book indicates likewise that it did not happen in the same day, but it was on June 8th that it happened.

M. I don't recall the month at all. I just don't. To say that I did would be ironic. I don't remember. I know it was summer time. That I do know.

S. Edwin states, "It is perhaps worth recalling that today, June 8th, was on the 5th anniversary of the Reverend H. Bull's death in the Blue Room, the room in fact alongside in which I had just wintnessed. . ." and so forth.

Then, on page 94, he states, "We found some fresh writings on the wall and the kitchen passage, making the same appeal to Mrs. Foytsre for help." What do you have to say about these writings asking you for help?

M. On the kitchen passage?

S. Well, those and other passages that were in the rectory.

M. I thought that - I don't recall, now let me see - I think that the only writings that were there were on the front landing passage, weren't they?

S. Well, is that the kitchen passage?

M. No, that was the upstairs passage. There was a main passage upstairs that looked down over, into the well, into the front hall. I don't know. There's a lot of things that happened that I don't know, and I used to ignore them because then if you don't talk about it, things don't get any worse. They go away.

S. Now, these little messages that were written, such as "Get light mass and prayers." Now, you saw these?

M. Yes, they were on the wall for all to see. That is true.

S. Did you and Edwin thereafter pray in answer to those messages?

M. Edwin suggested that he bring in a priest to say mass and prayers, and I think that he - I believe that he made - I don't know, I think that he asked - I don't know, I won't quite swear, but I think that he asked the parish priest in Sudbury about it, but I don't think that Father Moran encouraged the idea at all because Edwin - well, he was emotional and gave people rather a rough trip. He made, well -

S. But you and Edwin did pray in answer to those messages?

M. Let me see. I think Edwin sprinkled - no he didn't either. I don't remember. There's so much that Edwin did. He wandered around the house. I think that he was going to get -

S. Well, Marianne, on page 94 it states - Whitehouse again states, "We then walked upstairs together and we began to recite the last rosary of the novena on the upper landing near, but not quite inside the small room, overlooking the front entrance, a room which Mrs. Foyster had converted into a small chapel.

"About half way through the prayers a curious thing happened, the two of us became simultaneously aware of a presence felt near us," and he goes on. He states that neither of you could see anything but you felt the presence there. "The novena over, Mrs. Foyster walked back to room seven to investigate."

You returned a couple of minutes later and joined Whitehouse on the landing, and Whitehouse was surprised to see some fresh writings on an otherwsie bit of wall, which I described befofe, which stated, "Get light mass and prayers." Marianne, what do you have to say about you and Whitehouse saying the last rosary of the novena, and also about the small chapel which Whitehouse says that you had converted?

M. Well, now, let me say this that I don't know exactly what you mean by the last rosary of the novena becasue saying nine rosaries would be rather a long session I should say, and I certainly never did do that, that I can say, and I don't recall that Edwin said he was going to make a novena - yes, I do recall that - but I certainly didn't join him in making the novena, and I know for a fact that I certainly didn't recite nine rosaries with Edwin Whitehouse.

I don't think you can be aware of the time that that would consume. That would be a terrific amount of prayers, and would require a great deal of time to say it - hours in fact.

As to the chapel, it was and old room that during the time of the Bulls was used as a bathroom, but when we went to the rectory, the bath was taken out and Lionel thought it would be a nice room to have for a little chapel, and with the aid of a village carpenter who made the little rail for it, it was converted into a chapel, a little altar built, and Lionel always had one - when he was in Canada, we always had a prayer room, so that it was nothing extraoridnary. I cut the - well it was, we went away to a firm that supplied these transparencies for the window, and I cut those for the window, but that was nothing odd because we always had had one in the houses that we had occupied.

S. As far as the wall writings were concerned, you state that you had never anything to do with them, is that correct?

M. That is quite correct. I have never written on walls, and when the wall writings appeared, I thought it was the children who did it, and at one period we had a young maid. She wasn't with us very long. In fact, it was the only maid with the exception of Mary Dytor who did stay indoors. She was a little young thing. She stayed about, I think, four or five weeks. She was just quite a child, I think 14, and vbery much of a child and not very good at anything, and she got lonesome and went home. It wasn't for any other reason than that, but that was the only resident maid that we had.

S. Now, on page 98 of The Most Haunted House in England, it states that, "Mrs. Foyster was sitting in a small easy chair in one corner of the kitchen. The window and both doors were closed. Without warning of any kind, there was a sudden crash right under her chair; a bittle bursting into fragments on the stone floor beneath her."

It goes on - "We were standing in a row with our backs to the fire, talking and looking out towards the windows. Suddenly before our very eyes, a bottle poised itself in mid-air within a foot or so of the kitchen ceiling. It remained there for a second or two and then fell with a crash on the floor between us. I repeat that all three of us witnessed this incident." What do you have to say about this?

M. That was one night. Edwin - there were five of us because there were two small children there. That was one night that Edwin came up, I believe, to the rectory and tghere were certain incidents (certainly there were bottles thrown) and I don't know - I know that I was cooking. I think I was cooking fish. I believe I was. I know it was something that I had to watch, and the children were there and Edwin was expounding doctrines, and then I think it thundered. I believe it thundered because I know Adelaide was always very terrified of thunder, and I don't like thunder myself very much, and then I think first of all there were stones or something - there were a lot of that - were thrown and I believe it was stones, and then there was a bottle thrown, but I don't know. I know that I saw it crash but I didn't see it start or anything about it, and I know that the little girl that was there, she was very perturbed and so Edwin was saying that we should all fly, and I was very much annoyed with him because it was raining and two children and he was in a highly emotional state, and I was very glad when Mr. Foyster returned from London, and I may add that he was not too pleased to find Edwin in possession.

S. Of what?

M. Oh, of the house, excuse me. I said possession. I was using an Irish term. Edwin - well, it was a very invidious position, we didn't wish to offend the Whitehouses, and at the same time Edwin got to be very much of a nuisance.

S. Now, getting back to page 99, Whitehouse states that you were tired one evening and wanted to go upstairs to bed. "It was about 11 p.m. Leaving Katie in the kitchen with one of the lamps, Mrs. Foyster and I moved off in the direction of the main staircase. She was carrying a second lamp. We had only mounted a few steps when the wick began to flicker. Looking at Mrs. Foyster, I noticed that she was staggering. I was just able to grasp the lamp in time. This went out, leaving us in complete darkness. I put the lamp down as carefully as I could on the staircase, and lifting Mrs. Foyster up in my arms - she had quite collapsed - I felt my way as best I could to the top of the landing where I laid her down, outside one of the bedrooms." What do you have to say about this?

M. I'm hearing things. In the first place I do recall the incident of the light going out, but it wasn't - Edwin certainly could not have carried me or anyone else up the Borley staircase in the dark, and he certainly couldn't have carried me in the light as far as that's concerned, but the time in question, I think, if I am not mistaken, that again Lionel was in London.

He used to go - he was having, I think, well, I don't know whether it was his teeth - anyway he used to go up periodically now and then. He'd make a decision to go up to London for the day. I think it was his teeth or something to do with his health, and I think it was one of the children that called out, and I took the lamp, I was quite in the habit, and Edwin insisted upon escorting me up.

I remember being a little bit, oh, I don't know, I didn't want him with me because I was so used to going throguh the house and I know that I went rather quickly and, as often happened with oil lamps - a small oil lamp if onw ent quickly up the airy staircase - the updraft caused the light to go out, and that's what happened on one occassion. I know I called to Katie and she brought the other lamp, but it had happened other times. That wasn't the only occassion, and certainly Edwin couldn't have carried me. It was a long staircase. There were, I think it was five steps, five broad steps and then a turn, and they were very highly polished and they were - well, we didn't use the fron staircase unless now and then because of the highly polished state. They were a death trap really.

S. Now, the wall writings that appeared in Borley are naturally of extreme importance. You stated you definately had nothing to do with it.

M. No, I had nothing to do with it. I saw them, surely did, but I had nothing to do with them.

S. Who do you think besides the children could have done it?

M. Well, Edwin, there's lots of people. There were a lot of people around. There was Edwin. There were tenants over at the cottage, the Mitchells, at that time. They had a boy, Jack, a young fellow.

S. But why would they be addressed to you?

M. Well, I don't know. As a matter of fact, I don't know. I can't think why unless it was thought to be funny, I don't know. I thought Edwin had something to do with it, and then I don't know. I don't know.

S. Did you ever, at any time, see Edwin in a position to have written it?

M. Edwin saw this room. Edwin was all over the house, and it was - in the country rectory, when people come to church, they come there, they go over - well, there was just one toilet in the place and naturally they went to it. You didn't ask a person if they went upstairs where they were going because it was assumed that that was where they were going, and it was possible, the recotry was a big, old place, and if anyone had wanted to do that, they could have done it quite easily without - there were six entrances in or exits out, whichever you like to call them, and we never, there was never a door locked.

Now, in looking through the book, I see it stated that I went around unlocking doors. Well, that agian is quite untrue. The keys were kept in the old butler's pantry, and I don;t know whether any of them fitted or not, but I know that there were bolts on many of the doors, but there weren't keys, and if there had been keys, we would have taken them out on account of children locking themselves in. It would have been dangerous. But there were no keys in any of the doors during our time there, nor in any house that I have ever lived in, and Lionel himself never had a door closed. He hated the doors to be even closed.

S. Now Marianne, you have told me that you have never seen an apparition at Borley Rectory. Still, from an extract of Lionel's account in his manuscript he states that Marianne saw the apparition of Harry Bull on several occasions, and he further gives an account of Marianne seeing the monstrosity near the kitchen door, which touched her shoulder with an iron-like otuch. Now, did you tell this to Lionel? Did he make this up, or how do you account for it?

M. I didn't see Harry Bull. I never told anyone that I saw Harry Bull. I know that I saw people at Borley, but I never said I saw Harry Bull. I don't know where that came in, and I didn't know that Lionel had said that. There was one occasion when I asked him who a person was that I met and he siad it wasn'r anybody living, but he certainly looked living, and as to the apparition, I don't know; I just don't know.

S. Well, did you see an apparition or did you not?

M. No, I didn't see an apparition of a monster in the passageway.

S. Well, when you just said, "An apparition, I don't know," what did you mean by that?

M. Oh, you're confusing me; you're confusing me. A monstrosity, no I did not see a monstrsoity in the passage, no I did not see a monstrosity in the passage.

S. You say you didn't see an apparition of Harry Bull?

M. I never saw Harry Bull.

S. Well then, how do you account -

M. I once met a man in the garden and I asked Lionel who he was and Lionel got very excited and said there was no such person around and talked a lot of nonsense about it. (According to L.A.F. Marianne always saw Harry Bull inside the rectory.)

S. Well, was there a man in the garden at the time?

M. He looked real, but then there are many people that came around there that -

S. Did Lionel see him in the garden?

M. Well, I thought the mad was looking for Lionel. Lionel was under the tree, and I asked hiom who the man was that wanted to see him, and he said that - you see people used to come around and be around. He was the clergyman of the parish, and quite often if they would see him in the garden they would just go out around to him. It's quite a country trick, you don;t go up to the house and say, "Please can I go?" and I asked him who it was and he got very excited and said that - oh, a lot of things.

S. What did he say? Did you mention to him the name of Harry Bull?

M. No, he said that that was how his cousin used to dress and that no one had been to see him.

S. Did you describe the manner of dress?

M. Well, it was a person with a kind of a, a dark sloppy, what the Englsih call smoking coats, but there were many people that wore those over there. It was nothing unusual. I was just rather curious to know who it was, and I asked him who was the man who came to see you, and he said he hadn't seen any man, and I said, "Well, I saw someone go out through the garden. I thought he was looking for you," and he said, "No."

Well, then I thought they had taken the walk down and gone through, but that was nothing unusual either because people used to cut through the garden and go right down the walk and out through the botom. It was a short cut and people did it over at Bound's Meadow.

S. Now, the monstrosity that touched your shoulder with an iron-like touch, do you recall saying anything like that?

M. No, I do not recall seeing any monstrosity at all.

S. Well, why should Lionel put that in?

M. I think it was the time that Ian was there, that Ian played some trick. (This incident occurred two years before Shaw came to Borley.)

I don't know. So much of this I don't know; it's all news to me and it's no good badgering me saying, "Well, why did he do it?" I don't know the half of what he did. I know at one time Ian played a couple of jokes on me. He ran in one door and out another, but that was nothing at all. It was just a kid's trick.

S. Well, why would Lionel put this in his manuscript?

M. Oh, I don't know. I never read the manuscript, so I don't know what was in it. At the time Lionel wrote the manuscript he was a sick man and he could have put anything in. I don't know, he was very sick when he wrote the manuscript.

S. You mean mentally?

M. He had periods of aberration when he wasn't exactly quite keen, and besides it wasn't supposed to be - it was just supposed to be - the book wasn't supposed to be all true.

Do you have to - the book was for enjoyment and it wasn't supposed to be published at all. It was just - well, Price wasn't supposed to publish it. It was supposed to be more or less fiction - the whole thing was.

S. Well, now, Marianne, you have just explained to me that you had seen an individual walking toward Lionel who was sitting under a tree -

M. Yes, he used to go down there and read.

S. Yes.

M. There was a big cedar of Lebanon tree down there.

S. And Lionel, when you asked Lionel who the person was, he said he didn't see any person -

M. Yes.

S. - and you described him as wearing a smoking jacket and he said, "Well, that's the type that Harry Bull wore." Now, did you see this individual aroundthe grounds after that time?

M. Yes, I did. I even asked Mrs. Pierson who sometimes did a little scrubbing work for me who it was, and she said, "I don't know," which was the braod way of the Suffolk people, they had of saying. I am trying to think. I -

S. On these other occasions that you saw this individual, did Lionel see him, or on each occasion were you the only person that saw him?

M. I don't know whether - I saw the man that I saw go into the churchyard once, and there again they used to take that way over - they used to cross the churchyard and go back to "Belchamp" that way, but - and I remember thinking that that was the same person that I had seen, but I just don't know. Oh, I had - I think Adelaide was with me, playing around. I know I was weeding the paths and I saw this man go again.

S. And you're the only person who saw this man?

M. Well, I was the only person there so obviously I was the only person to see the man. When he went down the garden Lionel could have seen him if he had been looking up, but when he got his head in a book, he neither looked to the right nor left, nor heard. You had to almost hit him over the head to get him to come for dinner.

S. Now, do you think that Lionel in writing his manuscript referred to this incident, the apparition that you saw of Harry Bull?

M. Well, I couldn't say that it was Harry Bull because -

S. Well, he said that Harry Bull wore a jacket of this type?

M. Yes, he did, but I never saw Harry Bull wearing such a jacket.

S. Marianne, your son [Ian] has stated that you and Lionel told him stories of the haunting of Salmonhurst and Sackville rectories. Shaw even gave the name of the previous rector, the Reverend Hallard who was consulted about the hauntings. What do you have to say about this?

M. Well, in the first place Reverend Hallard followed my husband, Lionel Foyster, not preceeded. The rector immediately preceeding was Rev. Britton who was there for a couple of years and then married, and after he married he moved to a town parish.

Salmonhurst Rectory wasn't haunted, but Lionel and I had a joke there about it because there had been - I think it was the second rector, Reverend Clarence Minen and his wife - they fought a great deal and ultimately they were divorced. On more than one occassion Mrs. Minen had closed herself in a room and Reverend Minen had taken an axe and busted in the door and the doors were split.

On one occassion, Ian asked what happened to that door and Lionel thought it was none of his business, and it wasn;t exactly the thing that you discuss with a kid, and he said, "Oh, that was spirits did that." But that was just a joke and there were several old marks and scrapings on the house and we used to say, "Oh, spirits did that," but that was just joking. When people are not meaning anything you don't, well you don't, you just say things that don't have meaning that there were ghosts or anything. It was just a joke.

S. Now, Ian says you were responsible for the whole of the phenomena at Borley, aided by d'Arles and others. What do you say about that statement?

M. Well, how could he know? How in the Devil in Hell could he know? Now how in hell could he know? This is just beyond me. To take a statement like that from a kid that was there a very short time - and there are, I think I am correct in saying that the phenomena - I'm sure of it, that the phenomena were practically on the wane or had stopped. I believe - it certainly had stopped before we went back to Ireland, and I don't think there was very much of it while he was there.

I know we scared the living daylights out of d'Arles when he was there, but then Ian was away for a few months and he went to a job in London. He tried his luck in London and didn't like it, and then he went back to Ireland. He didn't get on well with Lionel at all and he was - oh, he rang church bells and was very, well - high spirited and Lionel didin't get on well with him. He ate too much and he got inot too much, but he certainly couldn't make any statement like that because he wasn't actually in Borely Rectroy more than a few weeks. I think a month at the most.

S. Now, Marianne, the last time I had a conversation with you, Ian evidently found a string - perhaps it was in another section of the house - which rang the bells and he came running to you that he had found it and you told him to shut up, he found the ghost. Do you recall that incident?

M. No, I don't. No, I don't. I know that - I know this, that Ian isn't speaking the truth when he says that and I can't see what his object is in saying that - what it could be.

The wires - the rectory ceilings were very high - very, very high and even on a step ladder I couldn't reach them and the windows - even mounted on a step ladder I couldn't put the curtains up or anything like that, and there were wires around the top, but the bell pulls had all been disconnected and that's all that I can say.

As to hanging strings or anything, I don't remember. I don't recall ever hearing anything about that, and secondly, I never told him to shut up.

S. Marianne, I have just read to you some information about wall writings and also paper writings that seem to have been executed in the same hand, which were found in Borley Rectory. Paper writings appeared in the rectory before Whitehouse came on the scene. One of the wall writings appeared on the landing while you and Whitehouse were alone in the rectory as described in the photstat that I had read to you previously. Now this information and the photostats were allegedly approved by you before publication. What do you have to say about this?

M. I don't know what you mean by paper writings because that's a new thing, that's a new departure. I've not heard about that, and as to approving anything, the first Lionel knew about it - the first I knew at all about any of this publication was a letter from Mrs. Hanbury - that's Lionel Foyster's sister - in which she told me about the awful things, and I understand that Edwin was supposed to have gotten my approval.

Well, I don't ever recall giving him any such approval. In fact, I don't recall - after Edwin left to join the monastery, he wrote to me a couple of times I know, but that was a way, way back. The next time I got a letter was aboput a couple of years ago, and I didn't write very much because I realized that he was not exactly a well man and besides, I didn't want to go into any more of this trouble. I'd had enough trouble about it - the incident. It's just something that I would like to forget, forever.

S. Marianne, last time I spoke to you in Jamestown, we had a conversation about your relationship with Price. Marianne, when was the last time that you can remember you saw Price?

M. It was - Mrs. Richard's Mrs. Richards - she was a very nice lady - and Mrs. Goldney - who was not so nice - and Mr. Price. They came in the afternoon and I think there was another person with them.

They were driven, I believe it was by Mrs. Richard's chauffer, and they stayed at the Bull at Long Melford, and they made arrangements to come back that night, and the two ladies - as far as I can recall - came back with Mr. Price. The chauffer drove them and then they went away again, I think.

Anyway, Mrs. Richards brought a picnic basket and they went to eat, and Mr. Price had a bottle of wine, and he dispensed the wine, and then he offered some to Lionel and Lionel didn't care for it, and he passed the glass to me, and I went to drink it - and I thought it was a trcik of Price's. It was - well, it was just ink, and I thoughht it was one of his because he has told us that he was a member oif the Magician's Club, and I thought that was one of his tricks.

I expressed myself, probably not too politely, and then there the bells rang, and they got very excited about that, and they declared that it was Adelaide who was suspect, and Mrs. Richards who tried to reach the wire. You see these wires ran, as I have explained beofre, around the top of the ceiling but they weren't - the bell pulls had all been taken away.

She said, "Good gracious, nobody could reach that, much less a child," and she was quite annonyed with them about it, but Price said, "It couldn't have been Mrs. Foyster so it must have been Adleaide. She is suspect now." And Mrs.Goldney chimed in and said, "She is suspect."

I said, "Well, it couldn't possibly have been Adleaide," and I said, "Well, it's just on a par with your saying it must have been me," and he said he thought now that it could be Adelaide, and that was the last time that I saw him.

S. Marianne, could you give me some further information about Mr. Price, Mr. Salter, and other members of the SPR and their method of operation at Borley Rectory?

M. I didn't know they were in any way associated with each other because Mr. Salter came with another man - I don't recall the other man's name - but I do recall Salter, and I think Sir George Whitehouse came with him. I believe it was Sir George came with him, and Salter told Lionel that he shouldn't have anything to do with Price because - and Lionel said, "Well, I am committed to it," and Mr. Salter said, "You'll regret it," which we certainly did.

When Lionel mentioned to Price about Salter, Price said that Salter wasn't supposed to have anything to do with thsoe investigations and he was in compkete charge of it.

S. Now, Marianne, I believe you stated to me previously Harry Price asked you to become active as a medium. He was also of the opinion, perhoas that you had mediumistic abialities and further, that he told you that you might have power of such a nature as to attract phenomena.

M. Yes, he did. He did say that. He said that I had power and that quite often poltergeists were attracted by powers similar to that which I had and he said I should take up to be a medium.

S. Now, did you ever have a seance with Mr. Price?

M. Mr. Price never held a seance down there. I sat in on seances once when the Marks Tey group came. They were a different kettle of fish. There was a Mr. Frost and a Mr. and Mrs. - I think it was Warren - and I don't remember the name of the medium that they brought with them, but I did sit in on a seance a couple of times. I didn't after that becasue, well, because it was of converstaions of someone who said I would sit on that and I would see the devil, and I didn't sin in it any more on that account.

But, on both occasions, there were manifestations that couldn't be explained, and it was the Marks tey people that apparently - I don't know - After they had had, oh I don't remember what they called it, but anyway the manifestations of rock throwing and that ceased. And during the regime of the Marks tey people, and that was that, and they were nice. They were a different type of people to Harry Price. They weren't bombastic or horrid in any way, although they had this medium who did produce manifestations that were not easy to explain. And I maintain here that we did not leave the rectory on account of the manifestations. And for the last three years, and I believe almost four years, part of the house was lived in by Mr. Vail and his housekeeper and little daughter, Ursula, and that was not mentioned in any of the books at all.

S. Now, when I had my conference with Mr. Ebon and Mrs. Garrett, you expressed skepticism toward the Borley phenomena. In your opinion or from your knowledge of from your experience at Borley Rectory, do you think it was fraud perpetrated by anyone in producing the phenomena?

M. That is a leading question because it depends on what you mena. I definately know that kids threw rocks at the house and there were other little tricks played. But there were phenomena that were not easy to explain away, and which I haven't tried to explain away.

S. What are some?

M. Well, there used to be a light - now, this was not seen by me alone, this isn't something that I dreamed up. There used to be a light appear in one of the rooms, that was during the time of the Bulls living there, it used to be called the "old schoolroom." There used to be a light mysteriously appear there and it was quite clear - you could see it from, well, the length of the kitchen passage or either in the courtyard or even if you were down either in the courtyard or in the meadow. That was one of the phenomena that was very difficult to explain, and which I don't attempt to.

There were others, but I don't know how that could have been produced by fraud, and I don't think it was. It was - there are phenomena like that often experienced in Ireland around people going crazy. It's just one of the things you have to accept.

I think that people have forgotten that there were other beings inhabiting the house beside human beings, and most Irish people know that there are other beings and put up with it and accept it, and that's that.

S. Now Marianne, there's a legend that was connected with Borley Rectory. Do you think this legend might easily be traceable to the natural fears of Mrs. Smith who lived there?

M. Well, I never saw a headless coachman. I never saw the headless coachman at all, and I can't say that I saw the nun.

S. What do you mean, you can't say? Did you, or didn't you?

M. Well, I can't say I saw the nun. I can't say that I saw the headless coachman at all in my life, and I don't know of anyone who did except Mrs. Smith - perhaps Mrs. Smith's maid did.

I know that the Bulls, some of the younger ones of the Bulls said - I believe, I'm not sure - You know when you're pleasantly engaged in coversation things are said and you forget who has said them - I know Ethel saw it when she was in the summer house. Etrhel Bull told me she saw it. I think it was the apparition of a nun, I believe that was Ethel that told me that.

S. Well now, Marianne, do you think that Mrs. Smith, who formerly lived in India, could have been influenced by the legend into being fearful at Borley that way?

M. I think that it's very possible because if you haven't been used to being alone - apparently she was a strange person - and if she wasn't used to being alone, I could see that she could be frightened about it.

You see, there were all kinds of noises that would go on there that could be perfectly attributable to - could be natural causes.

I mean, for example, sometimes people walking in the courtyard outside - it would sound just like they were in the kitchen passage. And if you were at all nervous you could be quite frightened I should imagine.

When Reverend Henry Bull, the father of the Bull family - not their brother, the father built the rectory - he had some wonderful fireplaces installed, all different. In the dining room there were two monks carved, one on each side of the fireplace, and Harry Price had been quite excited about those, and thought they were of monastic origin. But Mr. Salter - he apparently knew more of the history of the place - and he said, "No, they had been purchased at..." I think he said the Great Exhibition - a big exhibition in London - which apparently was quite true.

S. Marianne, what was the relation between Price and Mrs. Goldney? What had you observed while you were at the rectory?

M. Well, Mrs. Goldney - he slobbered all over her - excuse me, she was smiling up to Mr. Price all the time, very obviuously, and he was kind of goofy towards her. They were, I think, in the throes of having a mild romance - I guess that's how you would put it - and I think that is the reason that Mrs. Goldney took such a violent dislike to me. They had made several trips and he would go out first and she would follow, and then on another occassion she went out and he would follow. I wondered what it was all about and I went out as softly as I could - there was a coconut matting in the pasage - and then I went and opened the door rather sharply. They were behind the butler's pantry door, and he had his arms around her, and her dress was all hiked up, and she had pink pants on - the kind that we used to call "bird cages." I was very much amused, and sniggered, and I think that that was the reason why she disliked me so intensely.

S. Now, in my conversation with you in Jamestown you made a statement that Ian found a cord that was leading to the rectory bells -

M. Not a cord, it was a wire.

S. It was what?

M. It was not a cord, it was a wire hanging down in what was the old - where the Bull servants used to clean knives and shoes - in the outer courtyard.

S. It's the room marked, "fuel?"

M. Well, it's the room marked "fuel," but it wasn;'t fuel. It was known by the Bulls as the "knife and boot room."

S. That's the sketch on page 10 of The Haunting of Borley Rectory?

M. Yes.

S. And the wire was there you say?

M. Well, it was one of the bells, you see - you confuse me. The wire was there, of course the wire was there. There were many wires that were up at the ceiling in the rectory. There were many wires, but in that place one of the wires had been broken and was hanging down. Ian did draw my attention to that, but that wasnot unusual. That was normal to many people. It was nothing -

S. Is that the time he said that he found the ghost?

M. I never reaclled that occasion. I reiterate, I never recall that conversation. You know a person would recall it if that had happened, but it didn't and Ian never said it.

S. Marianne, would this be a correct statement: that the entire Borley situation as we see it today, was based on Lionel's manuscript by Price? Since Price had written The Most Haunted House, several other books have been written, all based on each other, going back to Lionel's manuscript.

You stated to me that Lionel was writing a fictional story. That, as a fictional story, he naturally would dress the situation up. Furthermore, at times, he was mentally - he had many mental lapses, which likewise would tend to distort his manuscript. What would you say of this situation?

M. To put the whole thing off on Lionel I don't think is entirely fair. I really don't. I think the whole situation at Borley started many eyars ago during the time of the Bulls. I don't know - but there is something there - and during Mrs. Smith's, reverend and Mrs. Smith's - there were happenings there. Long before ever we went there. When we went to Borley, Mrs. Payne spoke about the happenings there during the Smith's time, which, of course, Mrs. Smith later denied. And as regards Lionel's book, as I said before, price obtained that from him by a trick.

It was not intended to fall into such an unscrupulous person as Mr. Price's hands. I certainly would have fought like a banshee if I'd had the opportunity, but Lionel said Price had given him his word of honour that he just wanted to read it.

Now the book, when Lionel started it, set out to be not a - oh, what is the word, "scientific" book at all. It was fun, and he started it as something to do, something to while away many tedious hours, and if it ever had been published it would have been published as a book of fiction. I didn;'t read it, but sometimes he read me excerpts from it and we laughed. It was fun. It was funny, but it was certainly not scientific, nor intended to be scientific, and Price must have known that.

S. Now, Marianne, you just made a statement to me that if you had wanted to capitalize on the Borley situation and make a lot of money, you could have done that very easily. Would you elaborate on that statement?

M. Yes, I will. To me the whole situation at Borley during the time of its upset was agreat nuisance, and I was so thankful after it cleared up in a way that no one really knows. But if I had wanted to make capital out of it I could so easily have done so.

As to arranging phenomena, I don't think it would have been very difficult to have manufactured them for payment, if I had gotten in a few unscrupulous persons, which I could have easily done, and got a great deal of money in so doing.

S. Now you were very happy at Borley Rectory from what you told me.

M. Yes I was. I was happy at Borley and as to being black-balled by the neighbors, that's untrue. Borley was an isolated house and we had no pwer and we had no servants, but we did have one or two parties which were well attended, and I never thought of people as disliking me. I made a garden there, and it was certainly an improvement on the places I had lived in New Brunswick; it definately was quite an improvement.

As I said before, if anyone could stick Salmonhurst in new Brunswick, they could certianly stick Borley Rectory. It was like coming, well, from darkness into light, and as to it being out of the way, that didn't bother me. I have never lived in town, nor have I any wish to.

S. Now, Marianne, I have shown you the book entitled The Haunting of Borley Rectory by Dingwall, Goldney, and Hall, particularly the chapter on the Foyster incumbancy. You had an opportunity to read this chapter. What is your opinion of this particular chapter over-all?

M. Well, I think it's filled with may inaccuracies, very many inaccuracies.

S. Now, I'm showing you the book on this Foystrer incumbency chapter and would you comment - I see you have made some notes, some pencil marks alongside some of the paragraphs.

M. Yes, I did.

S. On page 87, where it states in his second Borley book Price says, "As we have seen on the very day they moved into the rectory, Mrs. Foyster, his wife and little Adleaide heard strange footsteps about the house, and a voice calling."

M. That is perfectly true. That day we went in we heard strange footsteps, but as I was to understand later when I lived there, the house had been - as I expalined to you before - empty, and many children had used it as a place to go in. As I said, there were six points of entrance or exits - whichever you like to say - to the house. And I see here it say, "a voice calling 'Marianne, dear.'"

Well, I think that that was - I thought it was Lionel calling and I still think that it was he that called.

S. I believe that he denies that.

M. Yes, I know, but people will call a person and then forget about it. But I know the voice was clear and Adelaide said, "Daddy calling." It was so trivial that it didn't matter.

S. Read the page there, page 88.

M. On page 88 Canon Lawton - whom I saw, I think it was a few minutes interview, anyway he didn't stay for tea or anything - says, "She was judged to be between 25 and 30, physically attractive, and to all appearances in excellent health." I don't know how he formed that opinion because I only saw him for a few moinutes. I never saw his wife. I just saw him for a few minutes, and he says my ehalth was superb. Well, during part of the time at the rectory, I had a great deal of trouble as I said before, with menstrual flowing, which went over a long period. And I did have several collapses there, which can be corraborated by Dr. Alexander of Sudbury.

S. Now, Marianne, I'm reading from page 88 as follows: "On the evening of 13 October 1931, Mrs. Foyster collapsed in an apprant faint. The rector was extremely concerned and Mrs., Goldney gave first aid to his wife and so forth. There was a crash of an empty claret bottle and some stones were hurled down the stairs." What have you to say about this incident?

M. I don't remember a great deal about many incidents, but I do recall that when Mrs. Goldney was there on that occasion - I think she was there twice if I'm not mistaken - I was ill when they arrived, and I'd been flowing, and I was ill. And when I would have those long flows I did faint, which I don't think is anything unusual. Certainly Dr. Alexander didn't feel it was unusual, and Lionel helped me up to bed. She said, "There's nothing wrong with her. There's nothing wrong with her."

Well, Lionel knew that there was and he didn't pay much attention to her, and I think - I know I was put in the room - and I believe there were some incidents of stone throwing. You see the mystery about the bottles - there were no bottles around Borley at all. There was no storage of bottles, and the mystery always to us was where the bottles came from because they wee old bottles, and there was no storage or place around Borley becasue I looked, and we never did discover where the bottles came from.

S. And you have no idea where the stones could have come from at this incident?

M. Well, they weren't near me. I was in bed, and they came down the outer staircase didn't they?

S. Well, did you hear them or were you told that that happend?

M. Well, I heard the noise and commotion but I didn't see it, though on other occasions I did see rocks. But on that occasion I didn't see any.

S. You saw rocks coming down the stairs. Is that the time you saw Miss Dytor running away from the scene? (Mrs. Wildgoose did not come to Borley until April, 1932 when the phenomena had ceased.)

M. I did see the rocks coming down the staircase one time, and then I saw Miss Dytor running away, as I said. She denied it, but I thought it was funny and didn't say much.

The Borley dialogue ends at this point with no further comments or observations.

As with the first interview, no one was satisfied with the second. Garrett told Hall she thought Marianne had mediumistic powers, regardless of what Marianne told her. She then wrote, "I do not believe from what I myself have seen of Marianne that we have received very much more knowledge."

Hall had spent five years wondering, probing, and digging into the affairs of Marianne. Now that the interviews were over, he didn't know what to do with the information he had. Garrett agreed to keep her copy of Marianne Foyster of Borley Rectory under lock and key. Hall hoped "for some possible publication in the future," and suggested the material "be available in the meantime for any student to read at your personal discretion." Because of the sensitive nature of what he had found, and out of consideraton to me and the others he so carefully documented, Hall concluded, "I think we ought to insist that no copies or notes are made on any part of it for a few years at least."

The project was over. None of the leads Marianne gave were followed, such as asking Dr. Alexander of Sudbury about her health. Instead, the book was hastily closed.

It was not reopened until 1991.